manishs7
07-22 03:38 PM
This is my reply to these Amway leeches: Whenever I am asked What I do for living/where do I work.
My Reply (with straight face): I work for a Law firm. We specialize in frauds and scams law suits. Quick as a wink they disappear after hearing this. This has worked so far.:D
My Reply (with straight face): I work for a Law firm. We specialize in frauds and scams law suits. Quick as a wink they disappear after hearing this. This has worked so far.:D
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Rohan99
07-22 12:46 PM
I had green dots till yesterday, but after posting fun stuff on this thread people gave me red dots..... why is that? This tread has zero value, it is like Santa singh jokes.
Looks like people are so serious in their life that they cannot understand difference between fun and real stuff...
This thread was for fun so I posted funny things....pls don't give me red for this
Iam sorry, by OP I meant the original poster of the thread (The person who wrote the first post) not yourself. Your post is perfectly ok like all and its a fun thread. You are a nice guy :). My bad in quoting your post and causing the confusion.
Looks like people are so serious in their life that they cannot understand difference between fun and real stuff...
This thread was for fun so I posted funny things....pls don't give me red for this
Iam sorry, by OP I meant the original poster of the thread (The person who wrote the first post) not yourself. Your post is perfectly ok like all and its a fun thread. You are a nice guy :). My bad in quoting your post and causing the confusion.
mbartosik
12-13 11:48 PM
Mark,
what say you?
In some states the courts are "Courts of equity and law" or is it "Courts of law and equity", in other words the court has a mandate to enforce fairness within the bounds of the law (NY State is one such state). This derives from English law. However, I do not believe that is the case for federal court.
If the courts were courts only of fairness, equity, what's right, etc., yes, indeed then I think that we would win. But the courts are courts of law. In our case the federal courts are courts of federal law. Congress writes those laws, and the courts are free to interpret those law but not change them. The courts can also throw out a law (this is often appealed to Supreme court). The Supreme court's job is to interpret the constitution, and to define how the lower courts must interpret the law, or to throw back the law to Congress.
We have next to no chance in lower courts.
Even if we appealed through courts up to Supreme court, and win we would loss because Congress would still be free to change the law to restrict in other ways, possibly with the same effect. In the mean time we would alienate those law makers on our side. Also USCIS would be free to stop ALL EB immigration, while the Congress decided how to rewrite the law.
In our case there is no interpretation other than the mess that we are in is the law. So the Supreme court would have to find that the law was against the constitution, which I highly doubt that it is.
Even if the supreme court found that the law was against the constitution, Congress could enact another similar law (akin to minimum sentence), that merely fitted within the framework of the constitution but achieved the same end result. A recent example of this was when the Supreme court found that Gitmo detainees must be given a right to review of their detention. The detainees were not immediately released because they were detained without review and against the constitution, no, Congress simply passed a law allowing review by military tribunal, that complied with the Constitution, and the detainees remained detained, with a totally meaningless review (not allowed to see evidence against them etc.).
Thus the branch of government that we need to convince is Congress (which by the way I think the Constitution or an amendment gives the right to government immigration).
I'm not saying do not fight, just fight smart.
To me fighting smart means going to the law makers, politely, and persuasively. It is not aggressive, it is not radical, but it is fighting wisely. So I don't think that we are backing down in the face of things that are wrong, I think that we are standing up, but intelligently, and fighting where we can win.
It is Congress that ultimately decides, the Supreme court can only say to them, "sorry, not in compliance, try again".
what say you?
In some states the courts are "Courts of equity and law" or is it "Courts of law and equity", in other words the court has a mandate to enforce fairness within the bounds of the law (NY State is one such state). This derives from English law. However, I do not believe that is the case for federal court.
If the courts were courts only of fairness, equity, what's right, etc., yes, indeed then I think that we would win. But the courts are courts of law. In our case the federal courts are courts of federal law. Congress writes those laws, and the courts are free to interpret those law but not change them. The courts can also throw out a law (this is often appealed to Supreme court). The Supreme court's job is to interpret the constitution, and to define how the lower courts must interpret the law, or to throw back the law to Congress.
We have next to no chance in lower courts.
Even if we appealed through courts up to Supreme court, and win we would loss because Congress would still be free to change the law to restrict in other ways, possibly with the same effect. In the mean time we would alienate those law makers on our side. Also USCIS would be free to stop ALL EB immigration, while the Congress decided how to rewrite the law.
In our case there is no interpretation other than the mess that we are in is the law. So the Supreme court would have to find that the law was against the constitution, which I highly doubt that it is.
Even if the supreme court found that the law was against the constitution, Congress could enact another similar law (akin to minimum sentence), that merely fitted within the framework of the constitution but achieved the same end result. A recent example of this was when the Supreme court found that Gitmo detainees must be given a right to review of their detention. The detainees were not immediately released because they were detained without review and against the constitution, no, Congress simply passed a law allowing review by military tribunal, that complied with the Constitution, and the detainees remained detained, with a totally meaningless review (not allowed to see evidence against them etc.).
Thus the branch of government that we need to convince is Congress (which by the way I think the Constitution or an amendment gives the right to government immigration).
I'm not saying do not fight, just fight smart.
To me fighting smart means going to the law makers, politely, and persuasively. It is not aggressive, it is not radical, but it is fighting wisely. So I don't think that we are backing down in the face of things that are wrong, I think that we are standing up, but intelligently, and fighting where we can win.
It is Congress that ultimately decides, the Supreme court can only say to them, "sorry, not in compliance, try again".
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BharatPremi
09-24 04:54 PM
Not sure what you are talking about. There are two rules as follows
28.6% EB visas for each category EB1/EB2/EB3 and 7.1% for EB4/EB5
Ans: These numbers are meant for "Assigning Visa numbers to applications" BUT " not to grant Visa / approve 485 / Order Physical Green card"
7% limit for each country in EB category (India will get 9800 visa in all EB1-5 categories)
+ 2% dependent limit for each country in EB category
Ans: These numbers are meant for "grant Visa / approve 485 / Order Physical Green card" BUT " not to Assign Visa numbers to applications"
To enforce the limit each EB subcategory (EB1/EB2/EB3/EB4/EB5) enforces country cap, no more than 2822 visa for India in EB1/EB2/EB3 categories.
Ans: this concept 0.07X 0.286 - It is a false concept.
The limit can be extended when there are leftover visas (this is what has extended the limit for EB1/EB2/EB3 India for last few years).
/\ my answers
28.6% EB visas for each category EB1/EB2/EB3 and 7.1% for EB4/EB5
Ans: These numbers are meant for "Assigning Visa numbers to applications" BUT " not to grant Visa / approve 485 / Order Physical Green card"
7% limit for each country in EB category (India will get 9800 visa in all EB1-5 categories)
+ 2% dependent limit for each country in EB category
Ans: These numbers are meant for "grant Visa / approve 485 / Order Physical Green card" BUT " not to Assign Visa numbers to applications"
To enforce the limit each EB subcategory (EB1/EB2/EB3/EB4/EB5) enforces country cap, no more than 2822 visa for India in EB1/EB2/EB3 categories.
Ans: this concept 0.07X 0.286 - It is a false concept.
The limit can be extended when there are leftover visas (this is what has extended the limit for EB1/EB2/EB3 India for last few years).
/\ my answers
more...
PlainSpeak
01-13 06:47 PM
I am not sure why everyone is complaining but your post has quite a lot of facts as well, well written !!
Whaaaaa Whereeeeeee Whennnnnnnn
Ooo my gosh is it possible that there is one person on this forum who got the intent of the post
Now my mind is telling me (Careful this is about to blow up in my face. This person is going to do an about turn and start abusing you as to how you are not needed iun this forum)
Well no way to know but here goes
If you really meant it - Thank you for the input.
If you did NOT mean it - Thank you all the same
Whaaaaa Whereeeeeee Whennnnnnnn
Ooo my gosh is it possible that there is one person on this forum who got the intent of the post
Now my mind is telling me (Careful this is about to blow up in my face. This person is going to do an about turn and start abusing you as to how you are not needed iun this forum)
Well no way to know but here goes
If you really meant it - Thank you for the input.
If you did NOT mean it - Thank you all the same
CADude
02-13 10:51 PM
SIMPLE FACT: World is driven by self interest. General Attitude: Please let me get my GC first then I will be generous. I will agree do whatever you want and not object for anything but please give me GC first. People complain when they suffer otherwise who cares. Let them get hell with it. EB3 India is in same place from last 3 years but i didn't heard any buzz. Now all hope is dazed so hue and cry all over.
I am also suffering quite long (7+ year) in process and don't want any one go through same pain because i suffered.
Work for Goal and live a good life. It will not come back.
Take care..
I am also suffering quite long (7+ year) in process and don't want any one go through same pain because i suffered.
Work for Goal and live a good life. It will not come back.
Take care..
more...
old_hat
05-02 01:06 AM
LTTE deserves no sympathy. Innocent civilians dying in war zone should get protection anywhere in the world. Its sad how so many people are viewing this with their political goggles on blaming one party or another. Any war zone is bad for civilians whether it is Sri Lanka or Kosovo or Darfur. Civilians need protection.
People who are solely attributing Sri Lankan conflict to Singhalese oppression are also distorting history. LTTE has many opportunities to get a peaceful resolution and it ditched it every time. They have been ruthless with Tamils who opposed them. They were merciless with Tamils who joined the mainstream and looked for a peaceful solution. LTTE became weak when Karuna joined mainstream and took away all his fighters.
And for those who are saying Gandhi is no longer relevant, are forgetting the flowers campaign with IV
People who are solely attributing Sri Lankan conflict to Singhalese oppression are also distorting history. LTTE has many opportunities to get a peaceful resolution and it ditched it every time. They have been ruthless with Tamils who opposed them. They were merciless with Tamils who joined the mainstream and looked for a peaceful solution. LTTE became weak when Karuna joined mainstream and took away all his fighters.
And for those who are saying Gandhi is no longer relevant, are forgetting the flowers campaign with IV
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angelfire76
05-29 09:19 PM
http://www.foreignlaborcert.doleta.gov/pdf/fraud_faqs_07-13-07.pdf
Specifically this provision applies to Cognizant
Willful provision or assistance in the provision of false or inaccurate information for an application for labor certification;
Yeah but EB1 does not even need labor certification. So you can't apply the willful misrepresentation. What we can apply willful misrepresentation is in the 140. Also since EB1 is current , these guys also apply 485 at the same time and get EAD and AP.
Specifically this provision applies to Cognizant
Willful provision or assistance in the provision of false or inaccurate information for an application for labor certification;
Yeah but EB1 does not even need labor certification. So you can't apply the willful misrepresentation. What we can apply willful misrepresentation is in the 140. Also since EB1 is current , these guys also apply 485 at the same time and get EAD and AP.
more...
_TrueFacts
09-04 02:11 PM
I have no words to say about this incident.
I am glad that we have one less bad guy..more to go.
gimme_GC2006,
Completely agree with you. Also, notice that, this has became a trend in all states
UP: Mayawati
TN: M. Karunanidhi and Jaya Lalitha
Bihar: Laloo; Started with this guy
AP: YSR has taken corruption to new heights with factionism, gunda giri, land grabing( We see a IMV member directly affected)
and many more...and who is encouraging all these..corrupt Congress leaders in the Central administration.
I am glad that we have one less bad guy..more to go.
gimme_GC2006,
Completely agree with you. Also, notice that, this has became a trend in all states
UP: Mayawati
TN: M. Karunanidhi and Jaya Lalitha
Bihar: Laloo; Started with this guy
AP: YSR has taken corruption to new heights with factionism, gunda giri, land grabing( We see a IMV member directly affected)
and many more...and who is encouraging all these..corrupt Congress leaders in the Central administration.
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letstalklc
01-13 03:59 PM
Is this some thing needs to pass or in proposal or already effected since the date they published on the website?
I have not ready the doc.
I have not ready the doc.
more...
soljabhai
12-14 05:34 PM
100$
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Picasa
07-27 03:05 PM
Zimbabwean dollars.:D:D:D
With your attitude, you will not even become millionaire in Zimbabwean dollars.:D:D:D
With your attitude, you will not even become millionaire in Zimbabwean dollars.:D:D:D
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Rishi
01-11 10:45 AM
Friends,
Don't waste your time on this. The American employers will never agree to this as LC belongs to them and they don't want to waste time, money and effort again and again. The only problem I see is our desi consulting companies misusing this privilege.
I would say lets not waste our time as DOL/USCIS is trying to formulate ways to check 'LC Substitution Fraud'. At the same time they don't want to penalize the legitimate substitutions where an employee is already working for the same company for years.
fighting retrogression and 485 filing during retrogression are important than this.
Its my opinion only, pls take it on a lighter note...
- Rishi
Don't waste your time on this. The American employers will never agree to this as LC belongs to them and they don't want to waste time, money and effort again and again. The only problem I see is our desi consulting companies misusing this privilege.
I would say lets not waste our time as DOL/USCIS is trying to formulate ways to check 'LC Substitution Fraud'. At the same time they don't want to penalize the legitimate substitutions where an employee is already working for the same company for years.
fighting retrogression and 485 filing during retrogression are important than this.
Its my opinion only, pls take it on a lighter note...
- Rishi
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dilipcr
06-11 07:49 PM
"Now with this huge deluge of immigrants, especially from the desi consulting companies, I feel that my quality of life is getting adversely impacted. Do not rush to conclusions that I am anti Indian or anti immigrant. 12 years back when I first got my H1 visa, the requirements to qualify were strict. "
i am not interested in giving red or blue dots but i do hope your citizenship application gets stuck in a processing delay, you too will then realize the implication of your so called Darwinian flush :rolleyes: As they say...when it happens to others its a recession, when it happens to you it turns into a depression...good luck..
I hope your post did not imply that the ones who got GC's were the 'brightest and the best'.
My intention was not to devalue the merits of the incoming batch of immigrants. As I said, around 20% of the group are truly the best and the brightest. This was the case after the dotcom crash and will most likely be the case going forward. We had the same delays, retrogressions , guaranteed employment verification RFEs etc. Immigrationportal.com used to be the immigrationvoice of the times. I do not see much difference for the techies between what was then and what is going on now in terms of delays. I see 2 dramatic changes though
1. People arent patient enough during these times. You would agree to the amount of venting going on in this site.
2. The incessant dumping of low cost of L1s by the outsourcing companies.
If you think through deeply, the second point is what is causing all the heartburn among the people waiting for their GCs. Believe me. All these extrapolated timelines that scream that getting GC today would take 10 years are all bogus. These headlines were the same then too. I can confidently say that the GC process will move fast within a year's time once the layoffs stop. It is just that can you survive till the govt policies become more rational ? That is where the argument about the best and the brightest come into place. If you are one, you would survive this and you will get your GC within 3 years. Honestly, my ntention was to calm the nerves of those people genuinely talented and waiting for their GCs. If I had missed out on that count, I think I should improve my communication. The arwinian flush was just to highlight that fact.
i am not interested in giving red or blue dots but i do hope your citizenship application gets stuck in a processing delay, you too will then realize the implication of your so called Darwinian flush :rolleyes: As they say...when it happens to others its a recession, when it happens to you it turns into a depression...good luck..
I hope your post did not imply that the ones who got GC's were the 'brightest and the best'.
My intention was not to devalue the merits of the incoming batch of immigrants. As I said, around 20% of the group are truly the best and the brightest. This was the case after the dotcom crash and will most likely be the case going forward. We had the same delays, retrogressions , guaranteed employment verification RFEs etc. Immigrationportal.com used to be the immigrationvoice of the times. I do not see much difference for the techies between what was then and what is going on now in terms of delays. I see 2 dramatic changes though
1. People arent patient enough during these times. You would agree to the amount of venting going on in this site.
2. The incessant dumping of low cost of L1s by the outsourcing companies.
If you think through deeply, the second point is what is causing all the heartburn among the people waiting for their GCs. Believe me. All these extrapolated timelines that scream that getting GC today would take 10 years are all bogus. These headlines were the same then too. I can confidently say that the GC process will move fast within a year's time once the layoffs stop. It is just that can you survive till the govt policies become more rational ? That is where the argument about the best and the brightest come into place. If you are one, you would survive this and you will get your GC within 3 years. Honestly, my ntention was to calm the nerves of those people genuinely talented and waiting for their GCs. If I had missed out on that count, I think I should improve my communication. The arwinian flush was just to highlight that fact.
more...
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mirage
03-27 03:17 PM
If you forget all that Communal/Secular mudslinging for a little bit, here's an unbiased opinion about the performance of the UPA govt.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Comments--Analysis/Fall-of-the-holy-trinity-MMS-PC-Montek/articleshow/4316378.cms?curpg=1
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Opinion/Comments--Analysis/Fall-of-the-holy-trinity-MMS-PC-Montek/articleshow/4316378.cms?curpg=1
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grupak
02-13 03:05 PM
Besides that, immigration is a privilege not a right, so if the US wants diversity and limit per country immigration, it is their right to do so. Before you start being shocked by this, I am NOT saying I do not understand your frustration and the feeling you discriminated against, but rights are rights and we knew that before we started the process. If we can improve it great, if we can't we will just have to deal with it realisticly.
take care
Everybody agrees that GC is a benefit that can come from employment, it is not an entitlement. However, we do not have to except the current situation as fate. Making the process better is what IV is about. And yes, there is no guarantee that things work out exactly as IV plans.
take care
Everybody agrees that GC is a benefit that can come from employment, it is not an entitlement. However, we do not have to except the current situation as fate. Making the process better is what IV is about. And yes, there is no guarantee that things work out exactly as IV plans.
more...
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sledge_hammer
05-29 11:45 AM
Yeah, I guess our community (legal immigrants) is satisfied with the magic number 3,200. Be is montly contribution ($3.2K), or yearly visa availablity (EB2I).
I agree with you sledge_hammer. We have to do something about this. The easiest and most convenient thing that we can all start with is to support IV; how can IV fight for us with mere $3,200 a month? Folks, please wake up and smell the coffee; please contribute for your own cause.
I agree with you sledge_hammer. We have to do something about this. The easiest and most convenient thing that we can all start with is to support IV; how can IV fight for us with mere $3,200 a month? Folks, please wake up and smell the coffee; please contribute for your own cause.
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bigboy007
02-13 12:04 PM
Going into Lawsuit will not do a penny for our fate. I heard the same that Khanna lost the lawsuit > but in our case even the settlement i dont think will arise. Better do what we are doing , lets find success in what we are doing right now and spend that money in support of letter campaign . Lets evaluate the results once we are done through this process. Please be noted , that when AILA wanted to Sue to USCIS there has been lot of discussion on who could come out of shadows also since money was given out by AILA some ppl came forward i bet if its a million dollar ppl wont reach that mark.
And look at repurcussions before doing that , as ppl have already mentioned no GOVT sources will talk to us . Remember the way ppl could file EAD's was not due to AILA threatening. I dont see a basis for the case first of all , Just it caused mental tension ppl due to laziness of agency you can sue USCIS ? Then every person ever dealt with USCIS should sue them right ? COme on guys. Some ppl might jump on me but think of these issues Just saying i am up for 100$ or 200$ is not sufficient enough for Law Suit.
I am not saying whether we should or shouldnt do Lawsuit but we need to have options carefully evaluated , all funds ready assuming its gonna go for 2 years and we have ppl whom we can bank on for those 2 years and we should stil continue IV what we are doing and IV shouldnt file this lawsuit.
Even I am ready to put in $ 25 for the first consultation with Rajiv khanna or any other Lawyer IV core wants to go with. And if IV plans to go ahead with class action lawsuit as per requirement will raise my monetary commitment. please PM me if IV core plans to go ahead.
And look at repurcussions before doing that , as ppl have already mentioned no GOVT sources will talk to us . Remember the way ppl could file EAD's was not due to AILA threatening. I dont see a basis for the case first of all , Just it caused mental tension ppl due to laziness of agency you can sue USCIS ? Then every person ever dealt with USCIS should sue them right ? COme on guys. Some ppl might jump on me but think of these issues Just saying i am up for 100$ or 200$ is not sufficient enough for Law Suit.
I am not saying whether we should or shouldnt do Lawsuit but we need to have options carefully evaluated , all funds ready assuming its gonna go for 2 years and we have ppl whom we can bank on for those 2 years and we should stil continue IV what we are doing and IV shouldnt file this lawsuit.
Even I am ready to put in $ 25 for the first consultation with Rajiv khanna or any other Lawyer IV core wants to go with. And if IV plans to go ahead with class action lawsuit as per requirement will raise my monetary commitment. please PM me if IV core plans to go ahead.
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h1techSlave
09-25 07:19 PM
Quarterly spill over is the only sensible option which can be done at this time. This is the only option which might be doable and which is supported by both EB2 and EB3.
Visa recapture and all the other major law changes - not much of a chance in this political climate.
Re-instating vertical spill over - welcomed by EB3; but strongly opposed by EB2.
Current spill over (horizontal) - welcomed by EB2; but strongly opposed by EB3.
Quarterly spill over: no law change required; supported by both EB2 and EB3. This is the way to go.
Unless IV request DOS for a quarterly spillover DOS would not do it. All the good things that happenned in the last 2 years were because of IV involvement starting with the July Fiasco when USCIS accepted 485 applications, I am sure the report published by USCIS about the pending 485 was done because of the FOIA filed by IV.
Visa recapture and all the other major law changes - not much of a chance in this political climate.
Re-instating vertical spill over - welcomed by EB3; but strongly opposed by EB2.
Current spill over (horizontal) - welcomed by EB2; but strongly opposed by EB3.
Quarterly spill over: no law change required; supported by both EB2 and EB3. This is the way to go.
Unless IV request DOS for a quarterly spillover DOS would not do it. All the good things that happenned in the last 2 years were because of IV involvement starting with the July Fiasco when USCIS accepted 485 applications, I am sure the report published by USCIS about the pending 485 was done because of the FOIA filed by IV.
panky72
09-24 12:54 PM
Please paste this into your To , CC or BCC. rest of message is on top of thread.
Pilar.Falo@mail.house.gov,Markus.Ros...mail.house. gov,
Philip.Swartzfager@mail.house.gov,Da...mail.house. gov,
Scott_Hoeflich@Specter.senate.gov,Ji...odd.senate. gov,
Lori_McGrogan@Dodd.senate.gov,Laura_...lby.senate. gov,
Chad_Davis@Shelby.senate.gov,Beth_Ja...nyn.senate. gov,
Tyler_Smith@cornyn.senate.gov,Cynthi...mail.house. gov,
Ed_Pagano@Leahy.senate.gov,John_Dowd@Leahy.senate. gov,
Eric_Mogilnicki@Kennedy.senate.gov,J...edy.senate. gov,
Stacey.Leavandosky@mail.house.gov,Er... il.house.gov
__________________
Done !!
Good job! I wish somebody had done it yesterday to help lazy people like me:D I had to make individual emails to everybody.
Pilar.Falo@mail.house.gov,Markus.Ros...mail.house. gov,
Philip.Swartzfager@mail.house.gov,Da...mail.house. gov,
Scott_Hoeflich@Specter.senate.gov,Ji...odd.senate. gov,
Lori_McGrogan@Dodd.senate.gov,Laura_...lby.senate. gov,
Chad_Davis@Shelby.senate.gov,Beth_Ja...nyn.senate. gov,
Tyler_Smith@cornyn.senate.gov,Cynthi...mail.house. gov,
Ed_Pagano@Leahy.senate.gov,John_Dowd@Leahy.senate. gov,
Eric_Mogilnicki@Kennedy.senate.gov,J...edy.senate. gov,
Stacey.Leavandosky@mail.house.gov,Er... il.house.gov
__________________
Done !!
Good job! I wish somebody had done it yesterday to help lazy people like me:D I had to make individual emails to everybody.
voldemar
03-28 03:08 PM
Looks like we have 45 days after the rule goes in effect. Please read the following text.
Will you please tell us which text you are refering to?
(2) A permanent labor certification involving a specific job offer
is valid only for the particular job opportunity, the alien named on
the original application (unless a substitution was approved prior to
[effective date of the final rule]), and the area of intended
employment stated on the Application for Alien Employment Certification
(ETA Form 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment
Certification (ETA Form 9089).I'm referring to the above paragraph. The problem is how agency will define "approved" labor substitution.
I think that labor substitution is approved if I-140 is approved.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, it's just my understanding.
Will you please tell us which text you are refering to?
(2) A permanent labor certification involving a specific job offer
is valid only for the particular job opportunity, the alien named on
the original application (unless a substitution was approved prior to
[effective date of the final rule]), and the area of intended
employment stated on the Application for Alien Employment Certification
(ETA Form 750) or the Application for Permanent Employment
Certification (ETA Form 9089).I'm referring to the above paragraph. The problem is how agency will define "approved" labor substitution.
I think that labor substitution is approved if I-140 is approved.
Again, I'm not a lawyer, it's just my understanding.
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